The only European player in the global video software space

Building a European Video World. And today's panel is moderated by Laurent Haug. He is a man who wears many hats. At the intersection of technology, media, and innovation, Laurent is known as the founder of Lyft, one of Europe's pioneering tech conferences, which actually grew into a global platform, really exploring how these emerging technologies would shape and affect societies. So with his in-depth knowledge into tech trends and innovation ecosystems, he is really the perfect fit to guide today's discussion. So please welcome to the stage Laurent Haug. Thank you. Thank you. Of course. Oh, there we go. Thank you very much. We are going to talk about building a European video world. So why is European tech critical? Where video is headed in Europe and the opportunities and challenges of shaping a European video landscape. I'm going to immediately welcome our three speakers. Please give a round of applause to Niklas Hagen, Peter Bonnier, and Thomas Madsen-Migdahl. Gentlemen, look at that. Great. So I'm going to introduce you guys. You know, we're going to, because maybe people already saw some of the solutions you guys are heading. But Niklas Hagen, you started your career in recruitment and consulting. And since 2017, you've been the CEO of Hy-Vee. So you probably have a CEO of Hy-Vee. Right? I hope after the previous session. So it started as a research project initially. And now it's a 75 people company. And you focus on what seems like a niche problem, but it's actually a massive problem. I learned from our preparation discussion. But you deliver a seamless high impact live video events. And basically before people would get fired if they were running the live video because it would always break down. And you developed very strong peer-to-peer distribution algorithms. And you developed a very secure and confidential algorithm, which is important for your clients. And now lately, you've been moving into video experience, which is maximizing the quality of the video. And also communication intelligence. Maybe you'll tell us more about that. But just understanding how people receive the videos and whether the messages have been understood and accepted. Peter, I said yesterday, I asked Niklas how to say Peter. And he said it in a way that I could not. Apparently, there's a Swedish pronunciation. So you say it in English, American way, Peter. Bonnier. Before, you co-founded and ran the Swedish digital agency, KIT Kit. And you were the head of digital at Bonnier Titskiffer. The name of the company tells me you had something to do with the founding of the company. Now you're the CEO and co-founder of Story Kit, which yesterday we had a whole session on. So I expect that people in the room might have seen the product. But your tagline is basically, make 200% more videos with 95% less budget. And basically, what you do is that in an automated way, using AI, expand the impact of existing content. You allow to improve storytelling and also you work on localization. So distribution at scale of videos. And Thomas Madsen-Migdal, you are probably not in the need of too much introduction here. You're the CEO of 23. And you also founded one of the largest digital agencies in the world. In the early days of the web. And actually, we met 20 years ago at Reboot. And I would like to use Reboot as a way to my first question. Because Reboot, for those who attended it, was a forum to explore the future of technologies. Right? We tried to understand where this is going. And back in 2005, the first time I came to Reboot to discuss the future of technology, something very natural was to invite a lot of Americans. You know, there was Jimbo Wales of Wikipedia. There was Jason Calacanis. There was Doc Searles. If today you had to create an event to discuss the future of technology, who would be speaking? Would there be as many Americans? I don't think so. I think we would be speaking, right? I think we learned a lot from this cultural domination we've been in. I was 17 years old when I founded one of the first internet companies. And at age 17, you take everything in fairly raw. Right? And believe what you're here. You were in this machine. You read Wired. They were the ones telling the story. They were the ones celebrating their heroes. They were promoting their people. And under the disguise of being a global digital culture. It happened to come from an imaginary place called Silicon Valley that doesn't exist in the real world. But it's an idea. So I think, obviously, I think we've come full circle at this point on understanding that we need to take ourselves more seriously as Europeans. We need to cut out the clutter. And we need to relate, connect. So today, I think it would be very different. I don't think it's about being anti-American or anti-Californian or anti-Silicon Valley. It's about being us and being our culture and treasuring that and figuring out how far we can take it together. So, I mean, we are in this, I guess, kind of post-global digital world where we understand that it's not a new world. We're still in the real world we're in here. And it's our culture and our values. We need to also apply to it. So the lineup would be like this, I think. Yeah. So thanks. A lot of those we're going to discuss in more details. How we can do that concretely and what are the strengths of Europe. But, Nicolas, I wanted to ask you something. So one way to succeed, and I don't want to say win because of the previous panel. Like, she made fun of people saying winning. So I have to find another word. To succeed as a European company, your strategy was actually to go and be very, very big on the U.S. market. Right? You have a lot of U.S. customers. Can you tell us, you know, how you did that? And why U.S. Fortune 500 companies choose a European solution? Yeah. Yeah. Well, first of all, I'm still living in that idealistic world where I hope that the power of the Internet can bring us together rather than separate us. But I also understand that we need to accept what's going on. And we need to build something here that's as good. It's just more things is good. Everything is great. But for us, I think it's proof of European innovation capabilities that we were able to make it big in the U.S. as a very small startup with just a few people in the beginning. And I think it stems from, you and I discussed yesterday, long projects. The first seven years of Hive was no revenue. We were investing heavily in an algorithm that was so hard to build. And that's kind of, it was, it was, it founded as a cooperation between Royal School of Engineering in Stockholm and a business initiative. And that made us able to work on something for long without just being driven by getting revenue in the first day. And there are pros and cons of not shipping fast. But in our case, building something that complex was, it was necessary to get that time, to get that right. And I think just the sheer quality and the innovative capability, it appealed to everyone, including Americans. Why did it start in the U.S.? I think it's about wanting to speak to people in a human way and lead change. I think Americans, they are good at jumping up on a barrel and saying, let's go that way kind of thing. And that's why they wanted to have live video working in the networks a few years before the European leaders did the same thing. You also mentioned yesterday, sorry to be, referring to a private conversation, but you know, it's how we prepare and we can bring you good content after. But you mentioned yesterday that the move fast and break mentality would get some people fired because especially with live video, we're like, oh yeah, we're just going to do a broadcast for 10,000 people in, you know, 2010. And then you go live and obviously the infrastructure is not ready and it breaks down. And because it was the CEO speech, then they go and fire the head of video. And so, yeah, the American way of move fast and get fired can actually, not work sometimes. That's the problem you were solving. So you already referred to some things that I think we're going to talk more about, which is, you know, the quality of the product, maybe a more humane approach, which I think is, you know, something that we would argue is part of the European value set, value system, let's say. And also maybe taking more time to do things and the idea of long products that take a long time to develop. Peter, one of the big parts of your offering on the market relies on AI, obviously. I think in most people's mind, AI is a US technology. You know, there is a lot of discussion about intellectual property being shipped to giants, the GAFAMs through AI. How do you deal with this? At StoryKit, how do you? Yeah, I mean, when it comes to the foundational layer of large language models, we really let our customers choose. And most of them choose American models because, as you say, A, they're most known and best marketed. B, arguably, they're trained on the best or largest data sets. And C, the interface layer, the way that you can interact with models as a developer is much more developed. In Europe, there really is only today one competitive LLM, the French model Mistral. And they are just not at the place yet where it's very easy for our customers or us to integrate with the model. So, yeah, it is very reliant on American technology. How we deal with it, it's like we deal with any supplier in our ecosystem, which is to set very clear contractual rights and make sure that data is not stored or models are not trained on the data that our customers use. But it's clear to me that, I mean, back to what Thomas said, that I think there, even though we start speaking about the European ecosystem and that narrative is much more present today, than it was just a year ago or two years ago. And the reason for that predominantly is geopolitics, right? It's the way that the world is developing. In practice, I think that the West Coast of America has strengthened its grip on foundational global technology in the last two to three years because of AI in a way that maybe wasn't even true at the end of the 90s. When you think about this and go all the way back to the chips driving these models that are designed in California, they're mostly, they're produced in factories that are a mix of Taiwanese and European technology. So, ASML is probably the one European company in this ecosystem that has real market power. They are then run on data centers that are mostly owned and operated by large American technology companies. And the models themselves are developed and owned on the West Coast of the US. And so, you know, if you were protectionistic, that would be very worrying. I'm not so worried. So, I think that might, I might be the same, I might have the same idealistical mindset as Niklas. But I think, I think the true value of AI, and I think what's most important for Europe, and, you know, it goes straight into our product of trying to automate something that's previously been pretty costly to do. But it goes into any agentic application of AI technology. It's the biggest impact it will have is on the productivity of the companies that aggressively deploy it. And the biggest problem that we have in Europe is that we are not productively competitive with the rest of the world. Not with America, not with Asia. And at the rate that we're growing our economies, you know, we'll be third world countries within a generation. Third world countries maybe isn't the term that you can use anymore. I don't know. But you will understand what I'm trying to say. And so, I think that independent on if the foundation of technology is American or not, the real battle here is how aggressively you know, our customer set, which are all of the large European companies, apply productivity enhancing technology in their organizations. Yeah, the key is not the tool. The key is what the tool does for you. And it's bringing some competitive advantage through productivity increase. Interestingly, it seems that a lot of some of some of the actors, like Meta and I think now Grok also are releasing open source models. Yeah. Open AI actually just announced that they will do. Is that the way forward for Europe? That maybe, you know, we leverage open source technology with our data, running data centers ourselves. Unfortunately, it seems that the only CPU or GPU of choices are still going to be Americans for a while. So, and quite expensive, by the way. Is that a hybrid you see happening? I mean, the interesting part of your answer is that you give your customers the choice and they seem to say, we're fine with our data being going to American NLM. So, maybe that's not an issue. Well, there's really no alternative. So, on the question, do we see? The answer is no, we don't see any of that. And the reason for that is that they're just today is no real alternative. I think if there were, if we could use Mistral, for example, in the exact same way that we can use Claude Anthropics models or open AI models, I think a lot of our customers would choose that for the reasons that you mentioned, which I, by the way, the rationalization behind those reasons, I'm not super convinced of. But that's a totally different discussion. So, and I think at the rate of change that we're seeing, it's very unlikely that within the next 12 to 24 months, we'll see real strong open source alternatives. I mean, I've been massively wrong on the pace of development in AI for the last, monthly for the last three years. So, you know, you should take that with a huge grain of salt. But I think to some extent, we will have to succumb to the idea that just like AWS or Azure was for cloud, we are going to have a number of foundational models and most of them will not be European. And I think my perspective is that I think that's totally okay. Because I don't actually even think that it's enormously important from a productivity perspective. From a geopolitical perspective is different, right? Is it problematic that most of our infrastructure and all the things we do every day run on servers that are, you know, eventually owned by Amazon or Microsoft? Well, no, right? Until... But to play devil's advocate, it's like what happened in Ukraine when Musk decides to shut down Starlink and then you cannot operate your country's defense. Exactly. Because someone in America made that decision. Correct. But that's, you know, it doesn't happen every day so far. Exactly. Niklas, you wanted to read that? I just wanted to comment on something you said about, because it's about productivity. And I said in my talk yesterday that already now, Microsoft has this Work Trend Index report that just came out where they did a huge survey. And they see that more than 50% of organization will integrate agentic AI into their core workflows within 12 months. And I believe that an employee that is strategically aligned with a company's mission and believes in it, will get access to agents, intelligent agents that work 24-7 at no cost. And very soon after that, each of those agents will kind of subspawn other agents. And I think in some companies, within 18 months, 24 months, they will have each employee produce 100 times more productivity. Yeah. And this is a question of European... I mean, the cultural aspects of how we do things we need to couple that with shipping mentality because it goes too slow. And I think that's one of the most important things we have to do. We cannot wait for that. We need to utilize agentic AI to start shipping 100 times faster. Yeah. And I think the companies that do, independent of industry, independent of ownership form, independent of the market dynamics they're in, well, the more competitive, the worse, depending on who you are. But the companies that do that will have enormous short-term competitive advantages, right? Because their cost base will just go down dramatically. Their gross margins will go up. They can start passing that on to their customers. That will make them grow much faster. And the companies that don't will fall behind even further on this productivity curve. And so there's... And in order to be for AI, right, the Dragic report, which, you know, big wake-up call for European productivity, that didn't even take this development into account. No. So the big question for European businesses is how well and how quickly they'll be able to implement the agentic optimization. And we cannot... We don't have that much time to think about that. Let's... So obviously, AI is cannibalizing the discussion here. It's a very important topic. I'm going to move back to the European question, but quickly on that. Right now, making the rounds last week was this report from MIT saying 95% of people investing, I don't see any return. Okay. Then you start to read how they did the report. There's, like, intense questions about the methodology. It was probably not a conclusion that could be trusted. But I think there's a cognitive dissonance at the moment is that we keep hearing about how it's going to make us super productive, but concretely, except for a few niche cases, AI has not yet delivered. And Peter, your company actually does deliver. Can you give us a short answer, please, but, like, super, super concrete, maybe with numbers, if you can share, like, productivity enhancement that AI has been giving today European businesses or global businesses that you work with? In our company or with our customers? Both. Okay. So in our company, we have no agents deployed. Maybe... I think we have about 12 months. Now, I think in production, there's three or four. I think before the end... And they do... So I built an agent for procurement a month ago. It took away essentially 90 to 95% of the legal work that we do on a large enterprise contract. So they're starting to be in every facet of our business. I think if we look three to six months down the line, these three agents will be 35 and they'll do the work of 50 and, you know, and so on and so forth. I think for our customers, it's the same, right? This is what we sell. So we implement StoryKit. We say, you said it. I don't know the numbers that we have on the website, but because they're so under-exaggerated. So if I say what the real productivity increase is, my clients don't believe me. It sounds like magic. But we say 200% more output, 95% less cost. It's essentially, what's the word in English? The denominator is infinite. So it's hard to say the real number. But the idea is that the only barrier to realizing these productivity enhancements today is resistance to change. I mean, it is just that people are used to doing their job and suddenly having to do something completely different every day. It's scary and hard and organizations, especially large organizations, are not set up to facilitate that change. And I think, unfortunately, culturally, European companies are less set up to do this than American companies, which I think is the real danger. Because we also have a work culture with employees have rights and can have their own opinion. Correct, but that should really hit the other way. I'm kidding. No, but okay. Can I ask Amelia, can we do a, can we take 45 minutes and talk about cultural resistance to change? Because that's the second topic I'd like to dive in after AI, but I don't think, but I agree. And I heard that from a CTO last week and he said, now we give these amazing tools to people and they just don't use it because they are, their usage is changed. And that's a big problem. Let's go back to the, let's go back to, you know, the core of our session, to the promise we made to our audience to discuss the European tech. You know, the first question on the printing program is like, why is European tech critical? And so I'd like to throw back the question to you, like, why is it so critical? Because as we can see, I mean, you know, we're being productive. We're getting the productivity improvements. We can do business. We can even sell technology to the US. So why is it critical that we ask ourselves this question? I would say, I think it's a lot about what stories we tell each other, right? If we look at the AI story, a lot of the foundational research is European. A lot of the, most of the people are European, but we always already have told each other a story that we lost, which I totally agree with. Short term, we have lost, right? Also because the financial capabilities of the Silicon Valley companies to deploy and invest literally hundreds of billions in hardware to run these systems and not worry about revenue short term, et cetera. But so I think ultimately it's really about, I mean, it's about building in Europe, right? We live the last eight, 10 years with a story of Europe. That our, our role in the tech world was to regulate, right? Imagine telling that story to a 15 year old girl and boy in, in, when I grow up, I will be a regulator. I'm going to regulate technology. The Americans will build it. The Chinese will do it better eventually. And then we get to regulate it, right? Incredibly non-constructive story. I think we all believe in regulation. We all believe in functioning democracies. We are the region in the world that are closest to capital cities. Which explains a lot of the issues in the Silicon Valley that they are literally one of the places on planet earth that is the farthest away from a capital city. So I think it's a lot about the stories we tell, right? It's about that we buy each other's products. It's about that. I mean, no American company would give 80% of their cost base away to Europe. I mean, they're not stupid, right? I mean, but in Europe we keep doing it instead of buying each other's things. Instead of making sure the money goes into Europe, into our economies, into our talent base. But I think fundamentally for me, it's about that 15 year old and what they dream about that they can do in the world. And how do we create an environment where we can do it, right? And I think we're still so like, even we're on, we're not on the ball, right? We're still, is Stockholm better than Berlin or Copenhagen or London or Lisbon as a startup ecosystem? Who cares, right? I mean, we need to think not like this. We need to think verticals that we're building video. We are in part of a bigger, feel this sort of marketing technology or video technology overall, right? There are a lot of things we need to flip around to change our mindset because we just have these very unconstructive narratives that we tell each other that limits our potential for actually doing something, right? And I think that's what's starting to come shake about now, right? I don't think it's about Trump and all this stuff. It's about us starting to tell a different story to ourselves and to our kids and to the ecosystems we built that we need to relate. We need to build. And then we'll also regulate, right? And it's also shifting in the EU now. Although I'm sure, I mean, the European AI Act is one big piece of trouble, right? I mean, I think I'm involved in a startup where the quote was 200,000 euro to figure out by lawyers whether they would be applying to the European AI Act, right? Because also we've now once again defined something like the GDPR that is not practice. It's theoretical. So nobody knows how it's going to be implemented. It'll take eight years to get a court order on something on how it should be interpreted, right? So once again, we're just limiting. We're just doing, you know, we're kicking ourselves, right? Instead of doing the things we know, right? So I think it's ultimately it's about that, the leadership of figuring out how we unbox some of these things and stop doing things that are clearly not a good idea, right? At 23, we've chosen to only use European vendors in our technology stack, right? That means we run open source, everything, including AI, et cetera. Because we want to keep the money in Europe, right? Is there a short-term cost to that? Yes. On some product development, there's a short-term cost to that. Long-term, we think it's the right way to go, right? But it's an example of where we need to change our philosophy. Yes, we need to start running servers again and a lot of other stuff that we got in that way from to run our own cloud, right? I mean, yes, I mean, it's stuff we did 10 years ago, 15 years ago that we need to start doing again. Yes, it's trouble. But, you know, we can do it, right? At least this time, we are not doing a project quite well. Remember how the EU came with this Google killer project and then 2 billion were spent and nothing ever came out? Yeah, but... You have to be alive in the early 2000s to remember that. But we're going to take questions. If we have questions, please prepare them. I want to quickly get also you guys' opinion on, you know, why it's important to have an European ecosystem and tech. Peter, Niklas. Yeah, so, I mean, I think geopolitics is one, right? So, there is... There is real risk now that... That the tech infrastructure that we have relied on to build, you know, most of what our lives and work run on, on things that may not be as permanent as we had thought. So, I think that's... I think it's unlikely, but I think it's something that is in consideration now and wasn't before. And the other is job creation, right? A lot of jobs are going to come. A lot of jobs are going to come out of these industries that we represent here, whether it's AI or technology or, like, all of these fields. And so, I think that's... It's important to not fall fully behind. Companies that stop innovating and stop doing R&D and societies that stop innovating and stop doing R &D tend to not flourish over a long period of time. So, yeah. It's crucial that we do innovation. So, infrastructure, independence, not being reliant on third parties, and also you mentioned job creation, like, it's very important. Niklas. Well, a lot of good things have already been said about that. I can refer back to one of the three things that we heard in this morning's keynote. It's, like, humans want to create. I think that's one of the most fundamental. I think also we want to play. But, you know, we want to create stuff, and we want to do that in our own backyard. I don't think we should be passive consumers of someone else's creation. It's fun to create. We win deals by showing the percentage of R&D we have compared to our revenue. Companies buy that. We need to keep investing and creating. Niklas, thank you very much. Do we have questions from the audience, please? Anyone wants to speak to our panelists about Europe, European tech? I'll get to my question. I think, and Thomas, it goes a bit to what you said. It's, like, it feels Europe is very defensive all the time. You know, we're making excuses. We have this big neighbor who's a bit crushing us when it comes to technology. It's a very defensive language, in a way. It's never, we never talk about what we do good. We always talk about, you know, coming late to the party, what we could do to kind of still exist, you know, with the guy in the back of the room raising their hands, saying, I'm here. But we could play offense, also. Europe actually has a lot of advantages, brings a lot to the table. And let's discuss that, you know. What are the things that Europe could offer and that would make, maybe, global players, you know, like, I don't know, Chinese company, Korean companies, whatever, actually choose a European solution? And I'm going to, you know, the obvious ones are, for example, privacy and regulation around data, which is much more consumer-focused. And, by the way, it has been copied by California, I think, to some extent. Maybe, you know, the way we, you see, you feel that in Denmark, but the way the environment is approached in Europe, you know, forcing businesses to care more about the environment is also something that I think in Europe we really believe is crucial. Maybe we have society that is more equal, so maybe that makes them more stable and, you know, could lead to better innovation and better outcomes. Like, what are the things that... I don't think we need to say anything. I think we're getting a lecture here. I'm trying to launch you on these topics. No, but, so, what are the things that we do well and that maybe the rest of the world is not doing well and that we could put forward? You know, if I, last thing, you know, Larry Lessig said... But I think you're wrong. What you started on, I think, is the interesting thing, right? Because even in our discussion here, we end up being a little bit defensive, right? There's somebody in the room and we are reacting to them, right? And I think it comes back to kind of this kind of how do we start being, sharing ideas and philosophies and, you know, that's also, I mean, there's so much ideology in what the Americans are pushing to us, right? Perspectives on the world, some of it very, whatever, peculiar and geeky and very, perhaps not as holistic perspective on what kind of European perspective and values and what works, right? You know, I mean, we have the most well-functioning cities in the world. Our economies in the Nordics are the strongest in the world. I think we're ranked 3, 4, 5 in the world or something like that at this point. Sweden, perhaps, 10, but it'll get back again, I'm sure. You know, I mean, we're killing it, right? I mean, Copenhagen has gone from being a provincial city when I grew up to being like one of the, you know, greatest cities on planet Earth where people come every day to experience the magic, right? So why are we not telling that story instead of a story, right? And I think it's particular to tech, right? You know, yesterday we announced that, I mean, that we're working with Noma, commonly referred to as the world's best restaurant, although no such thing exists, obviously. Great marketing, right? We can learn something from the chefs, on US-style marketing, I think. But, you know, they changed the world that, you know, they were dominated by the French, right? And they actually made a coalition with the Americans to get out of, you know, good cooking was French cooking, right? The best restaurants in the world were French restaurants, right? And now they revolted against it and created a new narrative around the local perspective and the local creation and the local creativity, right? So I think there is something in European tech where we, and it's very particular to the tech world, right? Because every other field, design, furniture, whatever, we're killing it, right? I mean, you're sitting in, I probably, I think, some Italians that designed some for Danish furniture brand chairs here, right? As far as I remember. You know, I mean, we're killing it, right? But in tech, we have this huge thing in the room that we need to figure out how we, because I think ultimately the dangerous part of what we're currently doing is that we're eating it raw, right? Tools, you embody it with intent, with principles, with values, right? And I think that's what we always try as tool makers to understand that we have a huge responsibility because whether we want it or not, the tool creates the behavior afterwards or impacts it majorly. So, I mean, we are being culturally, you know, embodied by these people, right? So how do we start putting our principles into it, right? But I think the dangerous part is that we don't, we are not the idea makers in tech in Europe. We are not people that have wacky ideas, agendic AI is, you know, it's an agendic perspective, it's workflow, ultimately, it's, you know, but, you know, where it's not about the technology, it's about the ideas, right? That, okay, we're going to live in this world, all these agents are going to talk to each other, right? That's like a very interesting philosophical concept. And that came from there, right? I'm sure if you research, there was a European that came up with it in a value company. Yes, that's why I was quoting Larry Lessig who said, code is low, and so code is culture, actually. And so one of the reasons, what you're saying is that, basically, typically these apps, these tools, they carry a value system with them to some extent. And so, kind of having people using them, it means they are in touch with a certain way of doing things in the value system that... But it's interesting, how do we get the elephant out of the room? I don't know, how do we get this, you know... But interestingly, so I spend half of my time in the US, and in the US, Europe is very popular right now, but it's kind of, you say it, you know, you whisper it, like, I live in Switzerland, but I say, it's really nice, I wish I could move to Switzerland. There was a lot of, there's a lot of, researchers moving to Europe right now, so I think we might have a perception that even people in the US don't necessarily have. So it's also self-reflection on, you know, how we see ourselves. How much time do we have? The screen here has shut down, so I don't have any indication. Can someone give me an idea of time, whether we can take one more question? One more? Thank you very much. Is someone, does someone in the US want to comment, or want to add something? You guys totally agree with what we're saying. Is there, is there, maybe now it's the time an American is going to raise their hand. Say, oh, here we go. We have a question. Hello. If we are quite late to the party in Europe, do you have a takeaway that we can go and do in our companies to sort of speed up? Good question. What can you customers do for you, Niklas? Well, I think when it comes to this quick decision that we need to increase productivity and start building things faster to not fall behind, I believe that it's about, it's about communication. We need leaders that can be genuine and explain this, because people hate change, but everyone loves progress. And we need to convey that complex transformation that every company has to go through in order to start delivering or shipping faster. And that is done through a human voice, I think. Homo sapiens has been evolving into being super good at detecting fake. I think if someone did something that was fake when 200,000 years ago, that was deadly dangerous. So we are really good at seeing that. So communication has to be very, very authentic and talk about these big ideas and actually not having corporate bullshit, but saying that you want to achieve something like that in a way that's authentic. I think that's the only spark that has to ignite the whole thing from my perspective. So it has to come from the top in terms of like, this is the vision we need to reinforce European ecosystem. Peter. Yeah, I'm going to be more concrete. I think you should think about a thing in your company, that you think maybe could be automated. And then I think one should try one's best to build that automation. Because when you do, that's, I think it's very hard to see the use cases until you've kind of gone through the first process of applying a use case. And uses can be twofold, right? Either it's something that is done in the company that can be done much more effectively or much cheaper with technology. Or it's something that you don't do because there's no way of doing this in your existing business today at a cost that is defensible. So this is what all of our customers do. Either they are spending way more money on producing video than they need. In which case there's enormous productivity enhancements in just implementing the correct technology. Or doing nearly enough video because there's no way in the traditional production ecosystem that you can get ROI from the video that you would be producing. And so I think this is true for video production, but it's true for every single process that goes in the company. And the only resistance is change, right? So technology is now there. You can do, I mean, well, we'll talk about that for this last hour. But yeah, so I think there's an enormous amount to do. So for you, Peter, what you're saying is that implement the benefits of AI now, regardless of who gives you the model for now, because your responsibility is to be a productive European company. Exactly, because I am much more dystopic than Thomas, right? I think that Europe is in deep, deep trouble. And I think that, I don't think so much about technology. I think technology companies, at least in Northern Europe, are pretty good. I think they're very good at that. But I think that, you know, I think that we're not in a position to be very confident, right? I don't think we're bashing too much. But I think that product, societal productivity is at a place where if we don't act now and act really forcefully, our children will grow up in a totally different type of society. We won't be able to afford the welfare states that we are enjoying the benefits of. And so I think this is really urgent to do one's best to make one's business as productive as possible. As one can. And that, at the end, is what will save Europe and the values we hold really dear and the welfare societies that we care a lot about. Because it is a great society. I mean, it's a fantastic society. It's just that we're, with one or two percent of less GDP growth than the rest of the world, well, you know, very quickly we're in a totally different situation. You say it's dystopian, but actually it's not really because what you describe is not that hard. Just like, try, try AI, optimize, and then we, you know, things are going to get better, which I like. It's a simple solution that it seems doable. Thomas? I think we'll jam a little bit further on Peter's thing. And I think my advice would be very simple. Buy European. You know, to relate, to make each other better, to keep the money where we can impact each other to build stronger companies, right? Because, you know, I mean, we said, I mean, especially in the video world, I mean, we're only competing against American players, right? I mean, we're sitting in public tenders where it's like, okay, all the money is going to stay in Europe if you're paying, if you choose our solution, right? Hopefully you choose it for the great product innovation and the leadership and all the things we do, right? But ultimately, it's just like, it's so counterintuitive not to understand that, especially the European model with our welfare society and our tax models. I mean, all the money is going to keep flowing and it's going to create positive, right? So we need to get that wheel to spin faster that, you know, employ more people. Those people will create even more companies. They will be, they will learn more. You know, we need to get that kind of positive flywheel to run a little faster. And I think the very simple advice is to relate more to each other by buying each other's things, right? Because be a great customer could also be, you know, we, I think as companies, we all love great customers, right? The ones that are working with us to make us better also demand more from us and push us, right? Those are the great customers, right? But the ones that we don't care are also great customers because they pay to build a company. And 20 years ago, when you would buy European software, you would expect maybe a lesser experience, but now that's not true. You can actually get a better service and better experience with European software. And being told that we have to stop. So please give a warm round of applause to our panelists, Niklas, Peter and Thomas. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you all.